7kontinent

SEDMI KONTINENT => Ostalo => Topic started by: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 06:58:34 PM

Title: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 06:58:34 PM
the land of the free again.

Ne mogu da verujem da to sto se nije javljao parole-officeru ne zastareva ni posle 40 godina. U normalnim zemljama samo ubistvo ne zastareva. Ovaj covek je odlezao svojih 20 godina za ubistvo i jedini greh je sto se nije javljao na kontrolu kad su ga pomilovali i pustili uslovno. Da su ga uhvatili posle 5 godina pa ajde, ali posle 40 godina strpati coveka od 80 u zatvro zbog toga je stvarno neshvatljivo.



HELENA, Mont. – The aging Frank Dryman, a notorious killer from Montana's past, had hidden in plain sight for so long that he forgot he was a wanted man.

In an exclusive jailhouse interview with The Associated Press, Dryman detailed how he invented a whole new life, with a new family, an Arizona wedding chapel business — and even volunteer work for local civic clubs.

"They just forgot about me," said Dryman, in his first interview since being caught and sent back to the prison he last left in the 1960s. "I was a prominent member of the community."

That is, until the grandson of the man he shot six times in the back came looking.

Dryman had been one step ahead of the law since 1951 when he avoided the hangman's noose, a relic of frontier justice still in use at the time.

Less than 20 years later he was out on parole. Not content with that good fortune, he skipped out and evaded authorities for four decades. After a while he even forgot about hiding and signed up for V.A. benefits from his days in the Navy in 1948.

Now the 79-year-old Dryman is back behind bars, likely for what remains of his life.

He was caught only after his long-ago victim's grandson got curious and started poking around.

Dryman was hitching a ride from Shelby cafe owner Clarence Pellett on a cold and snowy day in 1951 when he pulled a gun and ordered Pellett out of his own car and began firing.

Dryman does not deny the crime — just that he's not the same man today. He has been Victor Houston for decades. At the time of the murder, and after being discharged from the Navy for mental issues, he was going by yet another name: Frank Valentine.

"That kid, Frank Valentine, he just exploded," Dryman says of his crime. "I didn't shoot that man in the back. That wild kid did. That's not me.

"Victor Houston tried to make up for it by being an honor citizen."

Dryman says he served his time, which he did until paroled. But a Montana Parole Board not accustomed to leniency on those who walk away from supervision was not impressed with Dryman's subsequent good deeds. Last month the board sent him back behind bars to serve what remains of his life sentence.

Dryman said he disappeared from parole in California to get away from a wife he didn't like. He said he's not sure why he just didn't leave the wife and remain on parole.

But once gone, he said, he didn't look back. His new wife and family knew nothing of his past. He put down roots in Arizona City painting signs, a trade learned in prison, and performing weddings.

"I never thought I was a parole violator. I was Victor Houston. I never looked over my shoulder," Dryman said. "I just forgot about it."

On his birthday he used to get two cards from his brother: one for Houston and one for Valentine.

"I thought it was cute. I had no fear," Dryman said.

He said the details of his past are just coming back: the shooting, his original sentence and the cause he became for opponents of the death penalty, and his first stint in prison.

"Only since I have been back here did I start to think about it," said Dryman. "To be honest, I didn't even remember the victim's name."

Dryman understands he is not likely to get out again now. And he is not kindly disposed to the victim's grandson, the Bellevue, Wash., oral surgeon who became intensely interested in a piece of family history he knew nothing about. Clem Pellett compiled reams of old documents and tracked down his grandfather's killer with the help of a private investigator.

"I can't blame him for what he did," Dryman said. "But I think it was so wrong he spent so much money getting me here. I feel it is unfair."

Many in the Pellett family do remember the murder. A dozen descendants showed up at the parole hearing when Dryman was rearrested to testify against his release, saying the killing had forever changed the history of the family.

They said as kids they lived in fear of hitchhikers — even in fear of Dryman. Some remembered Dryman's courtroom outburst at his first trial that resulted in conviction and a hanging sentence.

"He turned to the judge and said, 'I'm going to kill you,' he turned to the jury and said 'I am going to kill you' and he turned to the crowd and said some stuff like that," said Clem Pellett. "He was an angry young man who felt powerless."

Pellett only learned the details of the case last year after cleaning out boxes of old newspaper clippings. His own parents never talked about the murder. He had never even really known the Montana side of his family, where the pain of the killing still lingers.

Pellett, without even talking to those relatives, began a quest to learn more, compiling old records, court transcripts, ancient arrest records for Dryman's petty crimes prior to the shooting — all of which he used to track down his grandfather's killer.

Pellett said he was driven by an intense curiosity, and would now like to meet with Dryman to fill in holes in the story that he may chronicle in a book.

Dryman doesn't think he will agree to the meeting.

He also denounces the allegation that he made a courtroom death threat, which Clem Pellett said was confirmed through his research.

Dryman lives in a low security wing of the Montana State Prison, wears prison-issue clothing and due to failing eyesight walks with a cane to avoid tripping. Being interviewed in the same parole board room where was he returned to prison for life, Dryman said of Clem Pellett, "He's already got me here, he should be happy. I think they got their pound of flesh, and I accept it."

One of the original prosecutors in the case also never forgot about Dryman.

"It was a very notorious case, perhaps the biggest of the time," said John Luke McKeon, now 85.

McKeon, a very young assistant attorney general assigned to the case despite his own opposition to the death penalty, said the Montana Supreme Court threw out the hanging sentence amid some of the most intense arguments over the death penalty the state had seen.

McKeon wrote a letter to the parole board in late May asking for leniency, telling the board he thinks Dryman has paid for his crime. But it got there after the board made its decision.

The former prosecutor doesn't see any way out for Dryman this time.

"I don't think the governor's going to give him exoneration," he said. "I think he is going to die in prison."
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 15, 2010, 07:01:39 PM
Dura lex sed lex.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Tromotorac on June 15, 2010, 07:13:22 PM
Ivane, rules are rules, not options.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 07:22:16 PM
znao sam da ce se javiti branioci rada i reda.

je l' ste vas dvojica sigurni da prekrsaj za nejavljanje parole officeru nikad ne zastareva?
Ja licno mislim da ovaj covek nema dobrog advokata.

Kad sam poceo da citam clanak mislio sam da je nekog ubio, pobegao i da su ga uhvatili posle 40 godina, i mislio sam dobro je - bolje ikad nego nikad. Medjutm ubrzo se pokazalo da je za to ubistvo odlezao 20 godina. Ono sto je uradio posle toga - nije se javio na kontrolu, tesko moze da bude nesto sto ne zastareva.

Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 15, 2010, 07:29:07 PM
Procitaj opet. On je dobio parole a to znaci da u zamenu za pustanje sa robije morao da se javlja parole officeru. A prekines javljanje - ode pogodba kroz prozor. How dumb does he have to be? He clearly has mental issues, ali kao sto (potpuno neopredeljeno) rekoh: dura lex sed lex.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: alan ford on June 15, 2010, 07:30:30 PM
hmm, tom logikom bi trebala da zastari i optuznica Ratka Mladica.
Ovaj je pusten na uslovnu, jedan od uslova je bio da se redovno javlja kako bi 'nadlezni organi' imali uvid cime se bavi, sta radi te da se dobro ponasa. Ovaj je zbrisao, cime je ponistio uslovno pustanje i zakonski ponovo dobio status zatvorenika, prestupnika i kriminalca. Sad sto je proteklih 40 godina pristojno ziveo, i sto je sada mator covek je za simpatije ali je on prvo i prevashodno kriminalac koji je izbegavao pravdu.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 07:38:56 PM
Ratko Mladic nije odlezao svoju kaznu, te nema tamo sta ni da zastari.
Ovaj covek je odlezao svoju kaznu. Posle toga je napravio prestup. Priroda tog prestupa je takva da nema logike da ne zastareva.
Dakle, ovaj covek je odlezao 20 godina za ubistvo. Nije odlezao 5 godina, odlezao je 20 godina. Posle toga je napravio novi prestup koji nije ubistvo i bilo bi logicno da zastari.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Tromotorac on June 15, 2010, 07:40:13 PM
Pre nekoliko meseci su pronasli jednu zenu, koja je nestala kao devojcica i sve vreme bila drzana u kucnom zatocenistvu, odn. ne u kuci, nego u supi iza kuce. Zlikovac koji ju je kidnapovao kao dete, silovao i drzao u ropstvu sve vreme je bio na parole.  Parole ga posecivala, ali ocigledno ne dovoljno; po tvoj logici, mogli su da ga ostave na miru jer vise nije imao nikakve prekrsaje u knjigama.

Jos jedan korak dalje: cemu parole uopste? Zasto smetati ljudima, kad ih vec jednom pustis iz zatvora?
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 15, 2010, 07:41:53 PM
Alo, uslovna sloboda je sloboda uz USLOV: uslov da se javlja nadleznom organu.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: alan ford on June 15, 2010, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: Hate mail on June 15, 2010, 07:41:53 PM
Alo, uslovna sloboda je sloboda uz USLOV: uslov da se javlja nadleznom organu.

da ovo 'uslov' je glavna rec.
Drugo ovaj NIJE odlezao svoju kaznu, vec deo kazne a ostatak je pusten s tim da ima USLOV da se redovno javlja. I to je prekrsio.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 07:49:32 PM
Sve to stoji. Jedino sto je on napravio prekrsaj za koji je normalno da zastari. Nije se javljao parole-officeru, to je njegov prekrsaj. Ja jedino tvrdim da je to moralo da zastari, to je sve.
Idi sad opljackaj banku, ukradi 10M$, pobegni i za 40 godina ces to moci da priznas svetu i niko te nece goniti. A njegov jedini greh je sto se nije javio.

Nasao sam jedan normalan komentar od pedesetak sto sam procitao:

At 79 and having served a lot time for the crime The parole though he was capable of turning his life around or they would have never give him parole in the first place. Yes he did violate his parole but isn't the whole thing about giving parole about helping a convict reestablish himself in society and become a product member of it. That's what this guy did without extra cost to the state of community. I think that state just has to much money and extra time on their hand. How it going to cost them again for someone that has done just what the judicial system started out to do. rehabilitate a person that went wrong. Wake up Montana!
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 07:51:32 PM
Vama ovde ocigledno nedostaje oko za detalj. gde je Slanjen?

Nejavljanje parole-officeru je prestup koji jednostavno MORA da zastari.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Pijanista on June 15, 2010, 07:58:48 PM
QuoteNasao sam jedan normalan komentar od pedesetak sto sam procitao:

Hm, normalan je onaj koji podrzava tvoje misljenje?

Iako ima logike u tome da nejavljanje moze da zastari, nije bas tako jednostavno. Znaci treba da ga puste, i da mu kazu "ako se skrivas 20 godina, okej si". Ima razloga zasto treba da se javlja. To je ubica koji je dobio slobodu na veresiju, i treba ga kontrolisati jer vrlo lako moze opet da ubije. To sto on nije nikog opet ubio, ne menja stvar, moze samo da mu bude olaksavajuca okolnost. Jebiga, ubijes, puste te ranije i ti se na sve to poseres.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: alan ford on June 15, 2010, 08:01:57 PM
Quote from: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 07:49:32 PM
A njegov 'jedini' greh je sto se nije javio.

ne njegov jedini greh je sto je pobegao sa robije. Parole je deo robije, ne odvojena kazna.

Inace par puta u poslednjih nekoliko godina su pronasli tako neke ubice i slicne krimose posle ko zna koliko godina. Secam se da su uhvatili i neku zenu koja je bila deo neke grupe koja je valjda 60tih i 70tih postavljala bombe mislim nekim sudijama pod kola boreci se za ko zna sta, ispostavilo se da se udala za lekara da je zivela za svaki primer, imala i odgajila decu, svi su je iz kraja znali kao pristojnu i darezljivu...I eto posle 20-30 godina eskiviranja je zaglavila robiju. A isto se moze reci da se promenila i da nije to ta koja je ubijala i postavljala bombe. Cak se punim pravom moze reci da je neefikasno sada je slati da izdrzava kaznu jer je ocigledno pokazala vodeci primeran zivot da nije ista osoba kao nekada tako da ce se sada unistiti zivot njenoj porodici kao i njoj samoj za nesto sto se desilo zaista jako davno.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 08:12:24 PM
QuoteA isto se moze reci da se promenila i da nije to ta koja je ubijala i postavljala bombe. Cak se punim pravom moze reci da je neefikasno sada je slati da izdrzava kaznu jer je ocigledno pokazala vodeci primeran zivot da nije ista osoba kao nekada tako da ce se sada unistiti zivot njenoj porodici kao i njoj samoj za nesto sto se desilo zaista jako davno.

Ja smatram da je kazna sama sebi dovoljan cilj i razlog. Dakle da li je to neefikasno ili ne - zlocin treba kazniti po mom misljenju.
Ni to "nije to vise ista osoba" ne drzi vodu po mom misljenju.

Ali taj slucaj slucaj nema nikakve veze sa ovim slucajem. Ovaj covek je svoju kaznu odlezao.
Da se posle jos godinu-dve javljao parole-officeru bio bi slobodan gradjanin. Da su ga uhvatili recimo posle 5 godina nista ne bih rekao. Ali uhvatili su ga posle 40 godina. Nije njegov greh vise ubistvo - za to je odlezao 20 najboljih godina svog zivota i neka je.
Medjutim njegov greh je sad nesto sasvim drugo. A tu drugo jednostavno mora da zastari posle toliko godina u svakom iole normalnom pravnom sistemu.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Tromotorac on June 15, 2010, 08:14:35 PM
Ne vredi...
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Pijanista on June 15, 2010, 08:16:34 PM
QuoteOvaj covek je svoju kaznu odlezao.

Nije. On je nastavio da kaznu izdrzava u drasticno boljim uslovima. Javljanje vlastima je obavezno kao i postrojavanje ujutro i prebrojavanje u zatvoru. Covek je u stvari pobegao iz zatvora.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 08:19:14 PM
kao sto rekoh, nemate oko za detalj    xfoht
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 15, 2010, 08:22:49 PM
Pa dobro, ako je penal sistem coveka vratio u zatvor, jel' to znaci da je drzava nepismena pa ne zna da je to njegovo 40-togodisnje nejavljanje  zastarAlo? I wouldn't bet on that.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Daisy on June 15, 2010, 08:26:25 PM
Quote from: Pijanista on June 15, 2010, 07:58:48 PM

Ima razloga zasto treba da se javlja. To je ubica koji je dobio slobodu na veresiju, i treba ga kontrolisati jer vrlo lako moze opet da ubije. To sto on nije nikog opet ubio, ne menja stvar, moze samo da mu bude olaksavajuca okolnost. Jebiga, ubijes, puste te ranije i ti se na sve to poseres.


Da, ima razloga zasto treba da se javlja. To sto nije opet uhvacen, ne znaci da nije bilo kriminala.

Da se redovno javljao, ne bi bilo sumnje ... ovako on moze da prica da je pare zaradio noseci gajbice (i mama ce to da potvrdi), ali kako je stvarno dosao do love je sada malo tesko utvrditi ... i zasto bi se neko jebavo sada oko toga?
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: slawen on June 18, 2010, 06:34:05 PM
Quote from: Ivan_D on June 15, 2010, 07:51:32 PM
Vama ovde ocigledno nedostaje oko za detalj. gde je Slanjen?

Nejavljanje parole-officeru je prestup koji jednostavno MORA da zastari.
Вратио се јуче - прекјуче из Пеште.

Даклем, условни отпуст (термин из нашег закона): кад се осуђено лице на издржавању казне затвора лепо понаша, а издржало је пола казне, може да буде пуштено на слободу, под одређеним условима; ако не испуњава те постављене или прописане услове, условни отпуст се укида и лице се шаље на дослужење, што би рекли у војсци.
Наравно, то време пробе не траје бесконачно, већ онолико дуго колико је остало казне да издржи, с тим што неки постављени услови (нпр. обавезно лечење наркомана или алкохоличара, накнада штете оштећеном кривичним делом и сл.) не морају нужно и временски бити тиме ограничени.
Проблем са конкретним случајем је што амерички систем познаје "доживотну осуду" (mutatis mutandi за оне осуде типа 5 до 25 година и сл.) где је остављена широка маргина да се оцена ефеката кажњавања материјализује у условном отпусту после неког, не фиксно зацртаног рока (најчешће се каже "не пре...", али то не значи да ће одмах потом аутоматски стећи право на условни отпуст); слично важи и за период пробе на условној слободи: обзиром да је главна казна временски неограничена (доживотна осуда), онда је и период кушње еластичан и зависи од оцене надлежних служби да ли је постигнута сврха кажњавања.
Питање застаре кривичног прогона, односно застаре извршења кривичних санкција је различито регулисано у различитим правним системима, али је најчешће постављено као један релативни рок који се рачуна за случај да судске власти не чине ништа на осуди или привођењу ради извршења (нпр. за дела за која је запрећена казна до 3 године затвора - 5 година, или, ако је изречена казна до 1 године - 3 године), а затим и један апсолутни рок ("... у сваком случају ако протекне двоструко времена колико је потребно за релативну застару"). Проблем са овом конкретном осудом је у томе што је она временски неограничена, па стога не може да застари, односно, могла би ако би то неким посебним прописима било предвиђено, што овде очигледно није случај.

Ово у случају тог деде је, по мом мишљењу, не неко лудачко "држање закона к'о пијан плота", већ је свесно учињено из разлога тзв. генералне превенције (која је један од циљева кажњавања), то јест, намера је да се покаже како је недопустиво да свако осуђено лице које буде пуштено на условну слободу САМО процењује да ли је постало decent citizen, па да себи укине остатак казне.

Остављам сваком на оцену да ли је баш тако схватило поруку америчких судских власти.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: alan ford on June 18, 2010, 06:44:09 PM
Quote from: slawen on June 18, 2010, 06:34:05 PM
Ово у случају тог деде је, по мом мишљењу, не неко лудачко "држање закона к'о пијан плота", већ је свесно учињено из разлога тзв. генералне превенције (која је један од циљева кажњавања), то јест, намера је да се покаже како је недопустиво да свако осуђено лице које буде пуштено на условну слободу САМО процењује да ли је постало decent citizen, па да себи укине остатак казне.

i ja sam mislio o ovome jer ako se eskiviranje uslovne kazne ne bi sankcionisalo zasto bi se iko redovno javljao?
A kad smo kod toga, pisao sam vec jednom da sam se zacudio kada je Milanovic bivsi direktor RTS-a pusten da na slobodi saceka poziv na odsluzenje kazne pa se nije pojavio i kada su ga pronasli mesecima kasnije u Crnoj Gori receno je da izbegavanje odlaska na odsluzenje se ne smatra krivicnim prestupom pa se nista nije ni desilo. Potpuno nelogicno, ako kriminalac eskivira i bezi od kazne, kako mu se ne nakarika jos odnosno zasto svi koji cekaju na odsluzenje ne beze...nemaju sta da izgube.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: slawen on June 18, 2010, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: alan ford on June 18, 2010, 06:44:09 PM
...odnosno zasto svi koji cekaju na odsluzenje ne beze...nemaju sta da izgube.

Код кога си ти наш'о да тражиш логику....
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 06:55:59 PM
Zar nije upravnica nekog zatvora u tzv. Srbiji onomad vratila sa zatvorske kapije kuci coveka koji je dovezen na odsluzenje kazne jer "nije bilo mesta u zatvoru"?
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: slawen on June 18, 2010, 07:01:59 PM
Има то у Две (три?) карте за Холивуд, кад каже "Онолике школе праве, а затвори им оволицни!"
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 18, 2010, 07:34:56 PM
QuoteВратио се јуче - прекјуче из Пеште.

blago tebi. kako volim taj grad i tu zemlju uopste. najsrecnije trenutke, neracunajuci one iz ranog detinjstva, sam proveo tamo.

Alane, i meni je to bilo cudno za to eskiviranje odlaska u zatvor. jos mi je bilo cudnije kad mi je neko rekao da se ni bezanje iz zatvora (ako usput ne pocinis krivicno delo) ne smatra krivicnim delom u Srbiji.
Ni laganje na sudu u sopstvenu korist i korist bliskih nije kaznjivo u Srbiji. Verovatno ni u mnogim drugim zemljama.

Videcemo sta ce biti sa ovim dedom. pretrazicu internet za par nedelja da vidim da li su ga pustili.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 18, 2010, 07:36:21 PM
Quote from: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 06:55:59 PM
Zar nije upravnica nekog zatvora u tzv. Srbiji onomad vratila sa zatvorske kapije kuci coveka koji je dovezen na odsluzenje kazne jer "nije bilo mesta u zatvoru"?

U Holandiji ljudi cekaju po par godina da odu na odsluzenje kazne. Tamo je (valjda jos uvek) zakon da ne mogu da stave dva zatvorenika u istu celiju, pa nema mesta.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Tromotorac on June 18, 2010, 07:37:21 PM
Neverovatno.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Che2 on June 18, 2010, 07:42:28 PM
ma najbolje ovako kao moji i hatemi-jevi ameri u Utah-i: pred streljacki vod i gotov pos'o...    demokraCki i pravo u celo!    :mrgreen:
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 08:00:04 PM
Ili sa struju.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 08:01:50 PM
U tzv. Srbiji po zatvorima sede ljudi koji se 30 godina sude sa stricem oko livade pa na kraju nemaju od cega da plate suCke troskove a ubice se salju kuci.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 18, 2010, 08:09:02 PM
Quote from: Tromotorac on June 18, 2010, 07:37:21 PM
Neverovatno.

Pre desetak godina je bilo izbilo pravo negodovanje kad su zatvorenicima oduzeli tada tek izasle PS2. Razlog je bio jer si sa PS2 valjda mogao da se nakacis na internet, a to je bilo zabranjeno. Iako su experti tvrdili da nema sanse da se neko nakaci bez telefonske linije samo sa mobilnim (za koje se znalo da su prosvercovani po svim zatvorima), uzeli su im sve konzole.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Tromotorac on June 18, 2010, 08:40:24 PM
Prosle godine sam ucestvovao u planiranju projekta za uvodjenje nove mreze i telefonije u 4 nova krila 3 zatvora u Arizoni. Ima tu mnogo posla, mnogo pravila, i mera predostroznosti. Ta nova krila su bila prilicno high-tech.

Od Dept.of Corrections sam cuo interesantnu pricu o trenutnom stanju zatvora u Yumi (ne onog 3:10 to Yuma, taj legendarni, u kom sam bio pre 2 godine, je sada state park i od '09 zatvoren za publiku zbog recesije). Trenutni trospratni zatvor u Yumi je pao inspekcije, koje su ga otpisale i treba da se rusi. Jedino se nezna ko ce pre da ga srusi - jedna dobra monsusnka kisa, ili bageri, nakon sto sazidaju nova i lepsa zatvorska krila.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 18, 2010, 09:14:31 PM
Au covece, pa ti imas pravi posao. Ja mislio da imas neko fake zanimanje kao Hate, Zagor i Alan    :mrgreen:

Svaka cast!

Da sam na tvom mestu projektovao bih backdoor logisticke kanale za isporuku dobara zatvorenicima. Za pare, naravno. Kazu da je to vrlo unosan posao za znalce.
Dvojica mojih kolega su bili u zatvoru davno (a year and a day, odlezali valjda jedan 4 meseca, drugi 6 meseci) i njima su prijatelji stalno slali u zatvor postanske marke koje su oni onda prodavali ostalim zatvorenicima za cetvrtinu cene i tako imali za cigarete i ostalo sto im je trebalo u zatvoru.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 09:23:18 PM
(http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-ashamed-smileys-705.gif)
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Che2 on June 18, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
Quote from: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 08:00:04 PM
Ili sa struju.


nadam se da smo se razumjeli da sam se salio po pitanju izvrsenja smrtne kazne strijaljanjem. izgleda mi strasno u 21-om vijeku.        :(
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Che2 on June 18, 2010, 09:39:52 PM
Utah firing squad executes convicted killer

By JENNIFER DOBNER (AP) – 1 hour ago

DRAPER, Utah — A barrage of bullets tore into Ronnie Lee Gardner's chest where a target had been pinned over his heart. Two minutes later, the twice-convicted killer was pronounced dead as blood pooled in his dark blue prison jumpsuit.

It was the first time in 14 years that an American inmate was executed by firing squad — a method Gardner choose over lethal injection. But death penalty opponents around the world reacted with horror all the same, renewing an international debate about capital punishment in the U.S.

Gardner was the third man to die by firing squad since the Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976.

Unlike Gary Gilmore, who famously said "Let's do it" before he was shot on Jan. 17, 1977, Gardner offered few words. Asked if he had anything to say before a black hood was fastened over his head, he said simply, "I do not, no."

The five executioners were police officers who volunteered for the task. They stood about 25 feet away, behind a wall cut with a gunport.

One of their .30-caliber Winchester rifles was loaded with a blank so no one would know who fired the fatal shots. Gardner was in a straight-backed metal chair, with sandbags stacked around it to keep the bullets from ricocheting around the cinderblock room at the Utah State Prison.

Nine journalists were permitted to observe the execution, including one from The Associated Press.

When the prison warden pulled back the beige curtain covering the witness room, Gardner was strapped into the chair, his head secured by a strap across his forehead.

Harness-like straps also constrained his chest. His arms were at his sides, handcuffed and strapped to the chair. Affixed to his chest was a white cloth square about 3 inches wide bearing a black target.

The AP reporter never saw the rifles and did not hear the countdown to the trigger-pull. Utah Department of Corrections Director Thomas Patterson said the countdown went "5-4-3..." with the shooters starting to fire at the count of 2.

Seconds before the bullets hit him, Gardner's left thumb twitched against his forefinger. When his chest was pierced, he clenched his fist. His arm pulled up slowly as if he were lifting something and then released. The motion repeated.

There was no blood splattered across the white cinderblock wall and no audible sounds from the condemned. Although the dark blue prison jumpsuit made it difficult to see, blood seemed to be pooling around Gardner's waist.

As the medical examiner checked for vital signs, the hood was pulled back, revealing Gardner's ashen face. His head was tilted back and to the right and his mouth slightly open. He was pronounced dead at 12:17 a.m.

About an hour later, reporters were allowed to inspect the chamber. There was a strong smell of bleach but no sign of blood. The only evidence that a man had been shot were four small holes where the bullets struck the black wood panels behind the chair.

Gardner was sentenced to death in 1985 for fatally shooting an attorney during a failed escape attempt from a Salt Lake City courthouse.

At the time, he was facing a murder charge in the 1984 shooting death of a bartender named Melvyn Otterstrom. Gardner pulled out a gun that had been smuggled into the courthouse and shot lawyer Michael Burdell in the face as Burdell hid behind a door.

In April, a judge ordered the execution to proceed, and Gardner politely declared, "I would like the firing squad, please."

He was allowed to choose the firing squad because he was sentenced to death before Utah eliminated it as an option. State officials scrapped it in 1984 after previous executions attracted unwanted publicity.

Of the 49 executions carried out in the state since the 1850s, 40 were by firing squad. Before Gardner's death, the most recent was John Albert Taylor, who was executed on Jan. 26, 1996, for raping and strangling an 11-year-old girl.

Historians say the firing squad persisted in Utah long after the rest of the nation abandoned it because of the 19th century doctrine of the state's predominant religion. Early members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believed in the concept of "blood atonement" — that only through spilling one's own blood could a condemned person adequately atone for their crimes and be redeemed in the next life.

The church no longer promotes such teachings and offers no opinion on the use of the firing squad.

The European Union issued a statement Friday expressing its "profound regret" for the execution.

"The EU reiterates its universal opposition to the use of capital punishment and urges the immediate establishment of a global moratorium on its use with a view to abolition," the statement said.

The American Civil Liberties Union decried Gardner's execution as an example of the "barbaric, arbitrary and bankrupting practice of capital punishment." Religious leaders called for an end to the death penalty at an interfaith vigil Thursday evening in Salt Lake City.

"Murdering the murderer doesn't create justice or settle any score," said Rev. Tom Goldsmith of the First Unitarian Church.

Gardner, who once described himself as a "nasty little bugger" with a mean streak, spent his last day sleeping, reading the novel "Divine Justice," watching the "Lord of the Rings" film trilogy and meeting with his attorneys and a Mormon bishop.

Members of his family gathered outside the prison, some wearing T-shirts displaying his prisoner number, 14873.

"I don't agree with what he done or what they done, but I'm relieved he's free," Gardner's brother, Randy Gardner, said after the execution. "He's had a rough life. He's been incarcerated and in chains his whole damn life. Now he's free. I'm happy he's free, just sad the way he went."

None of Gardner's relatives witnessed the execution, at Gardner's request.

"I would have liked to be there for him. I love him to death. He's my little brother," Randy Gardner said.

Burdell's family opposed the death penalty and asked for Gardner's life to be spared. Relatives of Otterstrom lobbied the parole board to reject Gardner's request for clemency and a reduced sentence.

Otterstrom's cousin, Craig Watson, witnessed the execution on behalf of his family.

A police officer with 35 years on the job, Watson said Gardner accepted the punishment "like a man." Gardner, he noted, seemed calm before the hood was slipped on.

"There was no crying, no wimpering," Watson said Friday. "When it was over with, I just had this feeling that he's gone and we can move on."

Associated Press writers Paul Foy and Rich Matthews contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Tromotorac on June 18, 2010, 10:26:48 PM
Ivane, nisam ja nista projektovao. Ja sam samo planirao Project Management logistiku za kontraktore koji su uvodili mrezu i IP telefoniju u nove gradjevine; posto je to bio projekat za DoC, onda smo imali sastanke sa njohovim IS glavonjama. I nisam vise u toj firmi.

Hateov, Zagorev, verovatno i Alanovi poslovi su much much bigger thing nego ovo sto ja radim.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 11:01:40 PM
Quote from: Che on June 18, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
nadam se da smo se razumjeli da sam se salio po pitanju izvrsenja smrtne kazne strijaljanjem. izgleda mi strasno u 21-om vijeku.        :(

Je li, a da te pitam onako ljuCki: jel' ti strasno i ono streljanje s kraja 20. veka koje smo gledali onomad? Znas ono sa "Skorpionima" u glavnoj ulozi, ono sto se iznajmljivalo posle po video-klubovima po Sremu? Kakav ste to narod, iznajmljujete video-kasete sa snimcima streljanja godinama, gledate po kucama, mozda vam to i deca vide, a udarite u kuknjavu kad "ta Amerika" nekog sprzi sa struju ili u legalnom postupku lisi zivota (po zelji samog osudjenog) streljanjem?
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 11:04:38 PM
Da li je streljanje no-no samo kad to rade - pa i sudski sankcionisano - Nemci, katolici, papa, Vatikan, Anglosaksonci i ostali vekovni srBski neprijatelji?

Sta bi sa onih 700-800 (u izvedbi iste te sremsko-baranjske ekipe) postreljanih seljana iz Podujeva sto ih nadjose zakopane na poligonu/strelistu jedne od kriminalnih srBskih parapolicijskih bandi?
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Che2 on June 18, 2010, 11:56:05 PM
naravno da nije u redu. zlocini su jasno definisani bez obzira ko ih pocinio. o smrtnoj kazni postoje mnoge debate. meni strijeljanje izgleda malo brutalno i barbarski u danasnje vrijeme. a moguce i da smo se samo "odvikli", jer ljudi se u sustini ne mijenjaju toliko bez obzira na tehnoloski napredak.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Pijanista on June 18, 2010, 11:58:48 PM
Sinko, streljanje je ukinuto, Njemu je data ta opcija samo zato sto je postojalo u vreme kad je izvrsio zlocin. U njegovom slucaju to nije "varvarski cin" vec dodatna opcija za koju se on odlucio. To mu nije nametnuto, mogao je da izabere otrov.
Mislim, 25 godina.... u Kini bi to bilo odradjeno za mesed cana.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Che2 on June 19, 2010, 12:29:04 AM
koja ste vi bi-polarna druzina... nevjerovatno.    :)

ja zivim u americi - JA VOLIM AMERIKU - ja imam kriticno misljenje o nekim stvarima u americi kao i drugdje. fair?

p.s. i da, ja poneki put koristim hrvatske rijeci. sorry for the incovenience!    :(
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Pijanista on June 19, 2010, 12:41:20 AM
Sta bipolarno?
Ja ne zivim u Americi, niti je nesto preterano volem, i imam kriticko misljenje. Bar se trudim. Ja sam generalno protiv smrtne kazne iz dva razloga: Prvo, mogucnost greske, drugo, taj osudjenik moze da ima blisku familiju, pa bar zbog njih. A ako vec postoji (kao u SAD), onda ljude koji su pocinili zlocin za koji se smrtna kazna propisuje treba da budu smaknuti. Porota i sudije (treba da) odmere kaznu po zakonu a ne po svom licnom nahodjenju. I stvarno msilim da je 25 godina previse, nije mi jasno sta je to sto traje toliko (zalbe, molbe...). Masa osudjenika je provelo 15+ godina cekajuci smrtnu kaznu, a dobar deo njih ne bi toliko previzeo ni da ih puste na slobodu.  :evil:
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Tromotorac on June 19, 2010, 01:02:03 AM
Quote from: Che on June 18, 2010, 11:56:05 PM
naravno da nije u redu. zlocini su jasno definisani bez obzira ko ih pocinio. o smrtnoj kazni postoje mnoge debate. meni strijeljanje izgleda malo brutalno i barbarski u danasnje vrijeme. a moguce i da smo se samo "odvikli", jer ljudi se u sustini ne mijenjaju toliko bez obzira na tehnoloski napredak.

Streljanje ti varvarsko, a lozis se na Chegevaru? Hmm.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: slawen on June 19, 2010, 04:04:06 AM
Quote from: Che on June 18, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
Quote from: Hate mail on June 18, 2010, 08:00:04 PM
Ili sa struju.


nadam se da smo se razumjeli da sam se salio po pitanju izvrsenja smrtne kazne strijaljanjem. izgleda mi strasno u 21-om vijeku.        :(
Ближи ти је свилен гајтан?
Али, то је само за господу....
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Che2 on June 19, 2010, 04:51:00 AM
Quote from: Pijanista on June 19, 2010, 12:41:20 AM
Sta bipolarno?
Ja ne zivim u Americi, niti je nesto preterano volem, i imam kriticko misljenje. Bar se trudim. Ja sam generalno protiv smrtne kazne iz dva razloga: Prvo, mogucnost greske, drugo, taj osudjenik moze da ima blisku familiju, pa bar zbog njih. A ako vec postoji (kao u SAD), onda ljude koji su pocinili zlocin za koji se smrtna kazna propisuje treba da budu smaknuti. Porota i sudije (treba da) odmere kaznu po zakonu a ne po svom licnom nahodjenju. I stvarno msilim da je 25 godina previse, nije mi jasno sta je to sto traje toliko (zalbe, molbe...). Masa osudjenika je provelo 15+ godina cekajuci smrtnu kaznu, a dobar deo njih ne bi toliko previzeo ni da ih puste na slobodu.  :evil:

bi-polarni jerbo pravite kavgu i kada se konacno slazemo oko necega.    :)
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: slawen on June 19, 2010, 06:19:58 AM
Quote from: Ivan_D on June 18, 2010, 07:34:56 PM
QuoteВратио се јуче - прекјуче из Пеште.

blago tebi. kako volim taj grad i tu zemlju uopste. najsrecnije trenutke, neracunajuci one iz ranog detinjstva, sam proveo tamo.

Сад можеш замислити како ми је сваки пут кад морам да се вратим у Србију.
Додуше, мало ми је лакше кад знам да и Пешта и Крагујевац имају сличних проблема: и у једном и у другом граду живи превише Срба.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 20, 2010, 02:55:00 AM
Veceras na ulici; ne: na stepenistu podzemne zeleznice, izmedju F i A/C/E linija, naletim na kolegu sa fakulteta. 10 godina vec ovde, 2 braka, treci uskoro - Japanka, uzeo i on drzavljanstvo, promenio 2-3 industrije, seli se u Hjuston, dobio posao u nekoj holandskoj firmi, nesto sa okeanografijom, mozebit i naftnim prospektingom i uvezanim softverom. Jos se oporavljam.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Pijanista on June 20, 2010, 05:19:50 AM
Zemlja mogucnosti   :lol: 8-)
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on June 20, 2010, 05:21:40 AM
Indeed. Zivela.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Ivan_D on June 20, 2010, 06:43:53 AM
zasto se neko od 35 godina zeni 3x? Mislim zasto se zeni uopste ako nemaju decu zajedno? U cemu je poenta?
Neki ljudi sto znam su se uzeli i ja sam pitao posle da li je novopecena supruga trudna. Rekli su da nije. Onda sam ih najozbiljnije pitao (mada sam mislio kao salu) zasto su se onda vencali.
I ljudi se malo naljutili.

Ali zeniti se sa 25, pa onda sa 30, i onda opet sa 35 mi izgleda suludo. Je l' nije bolje ziveti s nekim 5-6 godina, pa onda ako dodje dete uzeti se posle toga, ako se bas insistira na formi...

Zena mi je pricala posle nase svadbe da je bila iznenadjena prosle godine kad sam je pitao da se uzmemo. Rekla mi je da se vec bila pomirila s tim da nasu vezu necemo ozvaniciti svatbom.


Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: alan ford on June 20, 2010, 11:31:11 AM
Quote from: Hate mail on June 20, 2010, 02:55:00 AM
Veceras na ulici; ne: na stepenistu podzemne zeleznice, izmedju F i A/C/E linija, naletim na kolegu sa fakulteta. 10 godina vec ovde, 2 braka, treci uskoro - Japanka, uzeo i on drzavljanstvo, promenio 2-3 industrije, seli se u Hjuston, dobio posao u nekoj holandskoj firmi, nesto sa okeanografijom, mozebit i naftnim prospektingom i uvezanim softverom. Jos se oporavljam.

mnogima se to desi :)

Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: alan ford on June 20, 2010, 11:34:17 AM
QuoteUmirovljeni general Mirko Norac, koji služi zatvorsku kaznu u Glini, slobodni je vikend iskoristio kako bi pregledao gradilište svoje vile u Biogradu. Kuću od 300 kvadratnih metara gradi na 400 kvadrata zemljišta koje je 1999. godine dobio na poklon zbog zasluga u Domovinskom ratu. Norac je u pritvoru od 2001, a prema optužnici za zločine nad civilima u Gospiću osuđen je 2004. na 12 godina. Prema optužnici za zločine u Medačkom džepu osuđen je na još sedam godina, što je kasnije Vrhovni sud smanjio za godinu dana.

lepo, osudjen na 12+6 godina a Mirko vec 9. godine dobija vikende. Cenim da ce i uslovno za koji mesec, samo kucu da zavrsi.
Dobro placaju po zatvorima kada se skupi i za plac sa kucom od 300kvm.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: slawen on June 20, 2010, 02:19:09 PM
Само да си заменио "и" са "е" у "Биограду" и било би заиста смешно.
Овако, спрам осталих тај је још и награбусио.
Title: Re: neverovatno
Post by: Hate mail on September 27, 2010, 05:02:39 AM
Quote from: alan ford on June 20, 2010, 11:31:11 AM
Quote from: Hate mail on June 20, 2010, 02:55:00 AM
Veceras na ulici; ne: na stepenistu podzemne zeleznice, izmedju F i A/C/E linija, naletim na kolegu sa fakulteta. 10 godina vec ovde, 2 braka, treci uskoro - Japanka, uzeo i on drzavljanstvo, promenio 2-3 industrije, seli se u Hjuston, dobio posao u nekoj holandskoj firmi, nesto sa okeanografijom, mozebit i naftnim prospektingom i uvezanim softverom. Jos se oporavljam.

mnogima se to desi :)