7kontinent

QuoteBabies are the best ally of male domination

Elisabeth Badinter: "The model of the perfect mother is a step backwards" - Libération (2010 February 10)

"Woman reduced to a chimpanzee"
In a book to be released Friday, Elisabeth Badinter condemns a reactionary offensive that makes motherhood the Holy Grail of being a woman.
She talks of an "underground ideological war", of the "strong resurgence of naturalism", of "guilting mothers". Having observed women around her, investigated the practices of Leche League (1) converts engaged in a "milk conflict", dissected the recommendations of certain pediatricians and "maternal instinct" theorists, and peeled feminism open, Elisabeth Badinter describes the emergence of a new model which makes motherhood the core of a new feminine identity. The philosopher analyzes this threat in her latest work titled Le Conflit, la femme et la mère (Conflict, Woman and Mother) which will be released Friday by Flammarion and has already generated controversy. The book is dedicated to "Robert".
What is a "good mother" today?
She's one who goes back to the fundamentals. She breast-feeds for six months; she doesn't put her baby in a day-care center because a baby needs to be with her mother and not in a nest of germs; she doesn't trust anything artificial and worries about the environment. For her, jarred baby food is a sign of selfishness: we're back to Mommy's mashed purée. A good mother is always there to listen, must watch over the child's physical and psychological well-being; it's a full-time job. I forgot to add, since she breast-feeds on demand, she's supposed to let the baby sleep in the conjugal bed, which quashes intimacy for the parents and freezes out the father.
It has also become objectionable for the woman leaves the home, which is her natural place. We understand if she has to go work, but she has to arrange things so that she is there when the children come back from school. "Good mothering" imposes new obligations on those women that burden those who do not follow them. It's a rearward movement from the model that we've been pursuing up till now, and it makes equality between the sexes and freedom for women impossible. It's a step backwards. Are women going to let themselves be convinced to undertake that ideal again?
What is the "silent revolution" that has been happening under our eyes these past thirty years?
The economic crisis has made work harder, more unreliable, and more stressful. Women are the first ones affected: they get an education, look for work, are underpaid and get thrown away like Kleenex. That's the starting point of the upheaval. In the 90's, the right proposed maternal benefits that brought women back home with the equivalent of half the minimum wage as their sole compensation. At the same time, consumerism is looked upon more critically. The notion has taken hold that we've been on a blind path in race towards pointless ambitions, and that another life, more compatible with nature, is possible. Many women have been receptive to this view. And so they asked themselves, "What if I made it my [primary] goal to take care of my little child, in short, to be the perfect mother?" Along with this goes an overall criticism of scientific progress, of science "sold to industry". Everyone is suddenly so cautious about everything. All this has created new behaviors, new fears, that lead to a return to fundamentals.
According to you, this mood has encouraged the belief that mothers must breast-feed their children.
We've gone from, "You have the right to breast-feed," to, "You have to do it." A mother's legitimate choice has been supplanted by moralistic pressures led promoted by La Leche League. I think the naturalist philosophy in whose name this has been imposed is dangerous. For it leaves no room for diversity in mothering. It forces a monolithic conceptualization of women. We all can do the same thing, we all must do the same thing. It reduces women to the status of an animal species, as if we were all female chimpanzees. Since that is nature's order: we have the same reflexes, the same duties. The freedom to say no is gone. For La Leche League, there is no acceptable excuse for refusing to breast-feed, you just have to go through with it. There are never grounds to say no.
You write: "in a civilization where Me first is established as a principle, motherhood is a challenge, a contradiction even"...
It's a schizophrenic situation. These last thirty years, we have seen an increase in individualism, of hedonism, of Me first. This runs into conflict with an ever heavier demand to put the child first: eversince contraception has been available to women, we have to give everything to the child who never asked to be born, such as breast-feeding on demand. It goes without saying that those who don't are guilty, selfish. Between the rise in individualism and the increase in maternal duties, an internal conflict has emerged in each woman, with enormous social consequences. For society forgets that women possess a little atomic bomb: that of not having children. In Germany, Italy, Spain, when society forces a woman to bear the entire burden of being a mother without helping her, women have fewer children or none at all.
According to you, a "naturalist offensive" is being led by a "holy alliance of the reactionaries". Namely?
Environmentalism, La Leche League, naturalist feminism and behavior specialists have started to hang together and support one another. The most interesting to watch is how Leche League activists and essentialist feminists have embraced each other to reaffirm the value of motherhood, and to make it the core of feminine identity. These feminists want to build a gentler society through maternal virtues, with values they oppose to machoism. Leche League activists think that a woman is naturally a mother, thus going back to an age-old tradition. But the two movements have come some way together and have seized on "attachment" theories that give mothering hormones a decisive role. For them, motherly love is the result of our hormones.
What does environmentalist mothering look like?
The best example is disposable diapers. This illustrates exactly the sort of mindset that scares me. Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet[, French Minister of State for Forward Planning, Assessment of Public Policies and Development of the Digital Economy,] has proposed a tax on disposable diapers, without worrying about the extra work that this will impose on mothers. And contrary to what [French Green Party leader] Cécile Duflot thinks, it won't be men who will hurry home from work to put all the diapers in the washing machine. Likewise, epidural anesthesia has come under suspicion, as if taking away the pain also takes away the act of childbirth's primal and authentic value. Likewise, we have to offer children the fruits of nature, sparing them from all that is artificial or chemical, such as artificial milk.
According to you, babies have become "the best ally of male domination".
Small as they are, babies hold their mothers prisoners: a mother is at the beck and call of her child, she has to accomodate herself to the child's schedule, who sometimes gets to be prince/ss in the conjugal bed. Since the mother is the most implicated in the care of the child, the father is morally excused from not getting involved. Men don't have to lift a finger. The baby has become the master and justifies the unequal sharing of parental responsibilities. The exclusion of the father is thus legitimized, even though more and more young fathers experience pleasure in taking care of their babies.
I believe the measure of male domination remains the gap between men's and women's incomes. But it's hypocritical to whine about the income gap while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the larger inequality: not splitting family and household chores, which continues to be an area of unfair competition between man and woman. Men are excused in advance from doing nothing at home.
How can this conflict be resolved?
The majority of French women are able to combine being a mother with a professional life; there are many of them who work full-time when they have a child. They still resist the model of the perfect mother -- but for how long? Especially as witness a reckoning between generations. Some girls tell their mothers: "I won't be like you running around between work and children, always hurried, and stressed, blocked by a glass ceiling." I have the impression that today we are at a turning point.
(1) La Leche League (The Milk League, in English) is an organization founded fifty years ago by mothers of families in the suburbs of Chicago (United States) who wanted to share their positive breast-feeding experiences. Active in France since 1979, the orgnanization offers information and support to nursing mothers.

Perfect mothers?
Da li su to one shto peCHu papriku po Pijanisti?
Imam prijateljicu koja ima cerku koja je jako uspela u svojoj karijeri ( radi u Londonu za onu veliku banku i to za ozbiljne pare). Sad se udala. 32 su joj godine. Koliko god ova prijateljica zelela unuche svesna je da cerkina karijera ide down the toilet ako bude rodila dete...i kaze: Pa shta ja znam , toliko je ulozila u karijeru...moze i da sacheka sa decom...Medjutim ima samo jedno doba kad se radjaju deca ( mada je produzeno)...a karijera moze da se pravi i pre i posle. Posao ove mlade zene je takav da ne samo da je zauzeta 24/7 nego i jako puno putuje po svetu...nema pojma da bi provodila iole dovoljno vremena s detetom a o dojenju nema ni govora.
Moze li se biti perfect mother i career woman?

zanimljivo! opet ta muška dominacija ...
koji su muškarci izbor imali, da idu godinu dana na služenje besmislenog vojnog roka, ili šta? / da emigriraju? / da idu u zatvor?


gospodja bar lepo može da bira ...
... a karijera može da se pravi i pre i posle (lepo kaže vbo)

Može li se biti perfect mother i career woman?
... ima milion primera da može

pa i perfect father ne može biti 24/7 posvećen karijeri

Pa nije bash isto vojska i dete...Dete traje malo duze :lol:
Takodje nije isto da li je zena samo zaposlena (npr. radi rutinski posao u knjigovodstvu od 9-5 ili u kakvoj prodavnici) ili je na odgovornim poslovima koji zahtevaju putovanja i prekovremeni rad...dakle duga odsustva od kuce. Bojim se da su takvim zenama nekako po pravilu propadali brakovi shto je samo po sebi loshe za dete.
Istina je da takve zene pochesto moraju da biraju izmedju karijere i porodice...samo ja tu ne vidim leka.Tachno je da u mladjim generacijama ima vishe mushkaraca koji ce preuzeti dobar deo obaveze oko dece na sebe a zarad zenine karijere ako donosi puno novca u kucu.Ovo ipak nije pravilo. A posebna je pricha shto otac u nekim stvarima ne moze da zameni majku (narochito dok su deca mala , kada su devojchice u pubertetu i sl.).
Ja razumem potrebu zene ( narochito ako je josh i ambiciozna) da ostvaruje karijeru a da istovremeno ima i dete ali ne verujem da onda ona moze da bude "perfect mother" u smislu da dovoljno vremena paznje i nege ONA pruzi svom detetu.Ona mora da "outsource" mnogo toga.
Ono shto ne odobravam ovoj zeni je da obzirom da ona ima troje dece ne razume da je to "zatochenishtvo" majke u jednom periodu dobrovoljno , samim tim shto je odluchila da izradja tu decu.To ima svoju cenu ali ima i nagradu ako deca odrastu u decentne i sretne ljude.Kako deca rastu sve manje im je potrebna stalna blizina majke i zene tad mogu da se vrate svojoj karijeri. Naravno to nije ni lako ni jednostavno jer se izadje iz radne forme, jer se prekinu i nestanu poslovna poznanstva...jer poslodavci ne vole one koji su dugo van posla...itd.

Е вала још децу да можемо да рађамо, па да се и ви жене једном еманципујете & докажете дибидус.

 xrofl

Izgleda da se ova feministkinja malo zalaufala u teznji da dokaze nesto pa je i preterala. Istina je da je "naturalizam" u modi ali to nije ograniceno samo na materinstvo. Dovoljno je da se desi da odesh u prodavnicu i zaboravish reusable eco friendly bags pa da dobijesh par prezirnih pogleda u redu na kasi. Ipak nije sve bas toliko strashno kao sto to autor gore predstavlja.
Moj malisha ima 2 godine i jos uvek siki, a idem na posao. Jossad zna i da kaze. Dodje popne mi se u krilo i kaze: siki siku xrofl. Kad zavrshi sikenje na jednoj strani kaze: all done. Okrene se i trazi: druga sika sika.
Kad sam na poslu sasvim je ok , ali cim stignem kuci on prvo skace i vixe : mamaaaa, acim ga uzmem u narucje bude ono :siku siku . xfrog vreme je da se prekine ali ako mu ne dam on pocne da place legne na pod i ljutito bacaka nogicama.

će biti ko u autobusu za bašaid...
dzindzov od 7 godina se otima i neće sisu a mati će
"ajd uzmi sisu - saću dati majstoru!"

 xrofl
Tarance ne teram ja dete da siki, nego ono samo trazi. Ako imash neki savet kako da ga odviknem reci, nemoj da zezash.

Pa daj majstoru.

Jel me neko zvao?

Pozdrav od majstora

Quote from: slawen on February 19, 2010, 09:49:36 AM
Е вала још децу да можемо да рађамо, па да се и ви жене једном еманципујете & докажете дибидус.

A "ovaj" kolega? A?
On hoce da dokaze obratno xrofl

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5302756&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5302756&page=1)

Е, тога нема у Северну Кореју!

Ne razumem zasto zena MORA da rodi dete??
Kao sto ne mora svaka da ima karijeru, tako ne mora svaka da rodi dete.

Malo mi idu na zivac te naduvane dileme: karijera ili deca? Tu nema nikakve dileme... Zene koje toliko uzivaju u svojoj karijeri ako nemaju potrebu da rode dete - zasto bi ga radjale? I onako ima previse ljudi na ovoj planeti, njihovo zgebe a tamo a ovamo. Jako vazno.

I da ne pomisle da se ta dilema samo njima desava: i ja padam u slicnu vatru (kao i hiljade drugih zena) kada se pitam dal da pojedem jos jedno parce torte ili da cuvam liniju. Ne moze oba. Fala qrcu da ne moze oba.

E sad cu da sedim i da placem danima sto ne moze oba.

NE MOZE OBA. Deal with it.

To i ja kazem.
Ciji je uopste biznis ko ce, kada i da li da rodi, da bude majka, ili da juri karijeru? xrotaeye

I sta je to uopste perfektna majka?
Ko je taj ko odredjuje tu terminologiju i te kriterijume?
Zar je majka koja radi manje vredna nego neko ko sedi kod kuce uz decu?
I zar je zena koja se posvetila karijeri manje vredna kao osoba samo zato sto se odlucila da ne radja?   xrotaeye

Jeste ali dal zato shto ih drushtvo "tera" ili shto imaju materinski instinkt ( dal od hormona ili ne) vecina zena bi htela da ima i decu i karijeru.Al shto rekla Jelenche nekako to ne moze oba...neshto ce da pati...ili dete il karijera.
Ima zena koje svesno odluche da nemaju decu...Boga mi ima i mushkaraca koji decidno kazu svojim partnerkama da nece da imaju decu...kazu da ima i onih koji se na venchanju zaklinju jedan drugom da nece imati decu. Naravno , to je sve legitimno ali vecina bi ipak da ima decu.
Imam prijateljicu (i to u Beogradu) koja nije htela da ima decu, i muz je bio OK sa tim, oboje napravili sjajne karijere. Sad zive u fiktivnom braku (pod stare dane) a ona mi bash onomad reche da SAD pati shto nije imala dete. Jedna ti "patnja" izgleda ne gine.
Moze se naravno uraditi i polovichno, malo pati karijera, malo dete al na kraju sve izgleda OK po merilima drushtva.

One koje imaju materinski instinkt jaci od zelje za karijerom rodice dete, one druge nece i to mu dodje to.
btw, taj materinski instinkt je onako bas momacki izvikana stvar. Kao da svaka zena mora da ga ima?! Ko kaze da mora?

Druga stvar, koliko puta u zivotu smo promeili odluku, odlucili drugacije, premundurili se, okrenuli curak? Da li mozemo da pretpostavimo da u jednom zivotnom trenutku pase zivot bez dece, a u drugom sa decom?

Trece, deca znaju da rasture brak... Ljudi budu previse zauzeti decom i kad deca odu od kuce oni shvate da su postali stranci (juce nam bas jedan prijatelj rece da mu se brat razvodi posle 20 godina braka, familija u soku. Upravo ovaj razlog - deca (3komada) porasla i njih dvoje nemaju vise zajednickih tacaka).

Quote
Imam prijateljicu (i to u Beogradu) koja nije htela da ima decu, i muz je bio OK sa tim, oboje napravili sjajne karijere. Sad zive u fiktivnom braku (pod stare dane) a ona mi bash onomad reche da SAD pati shto nije imala dete. Jedna ti "patnja" izgleda ne gine.

Ne verujem da se radi o imati/nemati decu, vec o karakteru tvoje prijateljice. Sta god da je odabrala ona bi se posle pitala dal je mozda ono drugo bilo bolje. Kako kaze Pink "Own your own shit". Tako nekako.

Posto je nemoguce da se vrati nazad u proslost i da donese drugu odluku i dodje u ove godine sada sa decom, bilo kakva rasprava na tu temu je besmislena i ne cini joj dobro. Jer od sve price ostje samo njena ubedjenost da je ono drugo sto nema sanse da ima bilo bolje, te posrano osecanje da je napravila los izbor i da je upropastila zivot. Koji glupav nacin da razmislja o svom zivotu...

Pored toga, ima ljudi koji su imali decu a pod stare dane misle da mozda i nisu morali. Sta cemo sa njima? Ko je tu u pravu?

Karakter, pre nego bilo sta drugo.

Quote
Moze se naravno uraditi i polovichno, malo pati karijera, malo dete al na kraju sve izgleda OK po merilima drushtva.

Po merilima drustva...
Blago onom ko zivi po merilima drustva. Taj ce rano da poludi.

Само вас слушам: "Кокококодааа, кокода, кококококода..."

Чему каријера ако немаш децу?
Да би себи доказао да вредиш неки курац?

Ма хајте, молим вас, шта то говорите?

A sta ce ti deca ako zelis karijeru? Da bi sebi dokazao da si neki kurac?

Quote from: Jelence on February 20, 2010, 08:36:51 AM

A sta ce ti deca ako zelis karijeru? Da bi sebi dokazao da si neki kurac?

Našla si gde da postaviš pitanje.

Ti sto žele karijeru, izlaze iz rudnika samo da prespavaju, pa opet nazad u rudnik,
odnosno ne zalaze po ovakvim forumima.

Quote from: Jelence on February 20, 2010, 08:36:51 AM
A sta ce ti deca ako zelis karijeru? Da bi sebi dokazao da si neki kurac?

Екстремно глупо питање.
Не може се дати интелигентан одговор на свако глупо питање.

QuoteНе може се дати интелигентан одговор на свако глупо питање.

:|

Quote from: slawen
Чему каријера ако немаш децу?
Да би себи доказао да вредиш неки курац?

Екстремно глупо питање.
Не може се дати интелигентан одговор на свако глупо питање.

Pa nije bash njegovo pitanje TOLIKO glupo xyxy
Prvo karijera pored ostalog podrazumeva i materijalnu dobit a chesto je to i jedini motiv. Shta da zgrcesh bogatstvo koje i nemozesh da potroshish ( jer ga je mnogo) ako nemash kome da ga ostavish.
Drugo, ljudi od karijere dok su u radnoj sposobnosti chesto pored ostalog uzivaju i u moci ( c kao curka) nalazeci se na visokim polozajima a da bi onako chim se penzionishu shvatili da je to bila neka vrsta privida i da kad odu sa tih polozaja vishe nikom ne fale , da se moze i bez njih, da ih za 6 meseci svi zaborave kao da ih nikad nije ni bilo.A zivot im onda postane dosta jadan u svetlu ovoga.
Jedan stariji chovek koji se pred kraj karijere pokajao shto nije usvojio dete ( jer zena nije mogla da rodi a nije bilo ove danashnje medicine) rekao je : " Da sam drvo zasadio sad bih imao hladovinu".
Nisu sva iskustva sa decom sjajna i znam jednoga koji je rekao " da sam znao shta me cheka s decom ne bi imao ni pola deteta" ali ona, ta deca chini mi se kad se primaknemo grobu zapravo ostaju jedini trag da smo postojali...Sem ako nismo Davinchi, Gete itd.
Tako karijera, materijalna dobra itd. su lepi ali to sve " moljac jede i rdja satire" i vetar nosi...
Zato ja ne mislim da mu je pitanje glupo.

Quote from: vbo man
Pa nije bash njegovo pitanje TOLIKO glupo xyxy

E bas mi je drago da vas dvoje isto mislite.

Quote from: vbo man
Jedan stariji chovek koji se pred kraj karijere pokajao shto nije usvojio dete ( jer zena nije mogla da rodi a nije bilo ove danashnje medicine) rekao je : " Da sam drvo zasadio sad bih imao hladovinu".

Jel on hteo dete ili drvo?!

Да питамо Тонија?

Quote from: slawen on February 20, 2010, 08:30:02 AM
Само вас слушам: "Кокококодааа, кокода, кококококода..."

Чему каријера ако немаш децу?
Да би себи доказао да вредиш неки курац?

Ма хајте, молим вас, шта то говорите?

majstore, imas li ti dece?  ;)

Циљ питања је...?

Quote from: slawen on February 20, 2010, 03:11:55 PM
Да питамо Тонија?

Tvoju zenu?
Pa pitaj, sta ja marim...

Не буди проста.

Quote from: slawen on February 20, 2010, 03:29:14 PM
Циљ питања је...?

Da saznam odgovor. A odgovor je....

А који би био тачан одговор?

Quote from: slawen on February 20, 2010, 03:29:14 PM
Циљ питања је...?

It's for you to know, and for us to find out

zato sam i pitala

8-)

Сад смо отишли у неку филозофију коју ја не разумем / овде је 6 ујутро и не могу да спавам / мислим да смо договор на то питање већ добили / да бих ја сазнала / а циљ питања је / енглеске доскочице слабо капирам.

Quote from: amans on February 20, 2010, 03:26:28 PM

Quote from: slawen on February 20, 2010, 08:30:02 AM
Само вас слушам: "Кокококодааа, кокода, кококококода..."

Чему каријера ако немаш децу?
Да би себи доказао да вредиш неки курац?

Ма хајте, молим вас, шта то говорите?

majstore, imas li ti dece?  ;)

ajmo jope, majstore, imas li ti dece?  ;)

A циљ питања је...?

Jes' da se mene to ne dotice, ali vidim da se preganjate 2 dana oko toga, i pretpotstavljam da je cilj pitanja:

a) ako djece imas, relevantan si sagovornik (u protivnom ne; "ne znas ti kako je tesko odgajati djecu");
b) cisti kuriozum, da se kroz spontanu pricu upoznamo nesto vise.

Tipujem na a)...

А шта ако је

c) ја сам Пахомијева the dark side of the moonlight

На пример?
Најбоље нека сама Аманс каже.
Уосталом, ко је овде ( и коме?) адвокат, мајка му стара!

U pravu si, ja tu diplomu koju ti imas - nemam, a jos se nisam posteno ni udrvenio (pipam se da drveninu osjetim; pipam, ali ne na stanovitim mjestima!); zna se ko ovdje drzi advokatsku kancelariju, majku mu staru!

P.S. Malo zakuhavam, ali tek malkice...

Ела, жими...

Quote from: D(z)avid on February 22, 2010, 03:04:40 PM
Jes' da se mene to ne dotice, ali vidim da se preganjate 2 dana oko toga, i pretpotstavljam da je cilj pitanja:

a) ako djece imas, relevantan si sagovornik (u protivnom ne; "ne znas ti kako je tesko odgajati djecu");
b) cisti kuriozum, da se kroz spontanu pricu upoznamo nesto vise.

Tipujem na a)...

a) ne dolazi u obzir, ma jok, sta ti je, to kao, ne smes da komentarises film ako nisi reditelj  :mrgreen:

vise u stilu, upoznajmo domovinu da bi je vise voleli  :lol:

Mada sam ja i radoznala da to svet nije vido...ali otompotom  8-)

Не морам бити кокошка да бих препознао мућак, тај фазон?

delimicno, mos biti i petao....  :lol:

Sofronije - Ludo burazere (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq9wtj02v8I&feature=related#)

Quote from: slawen on February 22, 2010, 02:45:17 PM
A циљ питања је...?

testiram tvoj dzentlmenski karakter  xjap

И?
Што би рекли, џентлмен до јаја?
Или: џентлмен, до #@&!*ца?

Ma nije bitno, ne treba insistirati na privatnim detaljima onih koji ne zele da ih iznesu. xyxy

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7035563.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7035563.ece)

(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00687/news_35_pregnant_687887a.jpg)

Quote* [new] Re: Europe (4.00 / 2)
Sarkozy's depiction of pregnant, `virgin' Marianne sparks feminist wrath - Times Online

    She is pretty, pregnant and patriotic -- and has become a figure of loathing to a broad range of French feminists.

    A photograph of an expectant mother, used to advertise a €35 billion (£31 billion) loan that, it is hoped, will fund investment and stimulate growth, has been denounced across France. The image, accompanied by text saying that France is investing in the future, represents Marianne, the personification of the French Republic since the 19th century.

    However, critics say that it reduces French women to the role of motherhood, undermining decades of liberation. Worse still, they point out that the woman in the poster used by President Sarkozy's Government is clothed in white, the colour of both virginity and the ancien régime.

    "The hand of the state should not be in my uterus, and certainly not to look for money," said Le Féminin l'Emporte, one of France's most influential feminist blogs. Detractors also said that the image evoked the slogan "Work, Family, Fatherland" used by the Vichy administration, which collaborated with Hitler during the Second World War.

Nisam znala da su Francuskinje toliko napaljene feministkinje,,,"reduces French women to the role of motherhood"...chuj, ko da je to neshto pogano,,,svashta.

QuoteNisam znala da su Francuskinje toliko napaljene feministkinje,,,"reduces French women to the role of motherhood"...chuj, ko da je to neshto pogano,,,svashta.

Smanjivanje uloge zene na majcinstvo i ne izgleda lose, kada se gleda sa jedne strane. Uzgajas decu, brines se o familiji. Svako vece dolazi muz s posla kuci i trlja ti stopala. Preuzima deo poslova, koliko moze. Deca zdrava i napredna, milina.

Sa druge strane, to je recimo 1-2% slucajeva. Preostalih 98% je sasvim druga prica...

Sa "smanjenom svojom ulogom na majcinstvo" zene bivaju bivene, maltretirane, ucenjivane da ostanu i zive u nemogucim uslovima jer gde nezaposlene imaju da odu, neobrazovane, zapostavljene i na margini drustva. To mozes da vidis u drustvima koja postoje danas u svetu a zene su "samo majke". Znas li kako zive zene u Avganistanu? I sve one krpom preko lica prekrivene zene - sta mislis mogu li da pisnu? Od sad pa u narednih 10-15 godina, samo stomak, plop izadje beba, opet stomak, plop beba, cika, dreka po kuci, opet stomak...

Ajde ti majci kazi necu.

Mislim da se ovim "reducing to motherhood" misli primarno na gubljenje prava zene na izbor. A to JESTE big deal.

A i pogano je.

Quotegubljenje prava zene na izbor.

Na izbor chega?Izbor da radi ? Ne vidim da danas na zapadu iko brani zenama da rade.Naprotiv muzevi ochekuju od njih da rade i zaradjuju.
Izbor da se razvedu?
Kao shto sama kazesh danas takvih zena koje su kod kuce i gaje decu ima jako malo. Mislish da zato shto rade nisu bivene i maltretirane? Nema to veze vishe.Danas svaka zena na zapadu koja hoce da se razvede je i te kako podrzana materijalno od drzave...zato se valjda toliko i razvode.
Ne bih da poredim zene u Avganistanu sa ovima u Francuskoj...to su babe i zabe...
Ili mislish na izbor da uopshte imaju decu?
Imaju ga...ali da ovako pogrdno govore o materinstvu ...meni to smeta.

Quote from: vbo man

Quotegubljenje prava zene na izbor.

Na izbor chega?Izbor da radi ? Ne vidim da danas na zapadu iko brani zenama da rade.

A brane li im u Avganistanu?

Sta ti sa cime poredis?

POVRATAK na nesto je kad koraknes korak unazad. Nema veze sa zivotom na zapadu jer to je pocetna pozicija. Avganistan je korak unazad.

Kapiras?

Uopshte ne pricham o Avganistanu...pricham o Francuskoj. I kao shto rekoh to su babe i zabe.Ovde se Francuskinje feministkinje zale da ovaj Sarkozi hoce da ih "svede" na majke.Mislim da su nesrecno izabrale da se ovako izraze...jer ako je svesno meni se ne svidja.
Jasno je da savremena zena na zapadu danas ima visheslojnu ulogu i da nije vishe SAMO majka. Tako su i same zelele...i za to se izborile. Ali nipodashtavanje materinstva mi jednostavno smeta kod ovih feministkinja. Prvo je bilo "necemo da budemo SAMO majke" a sad "necemo da budemo majke uopshte"...Pa ne morate...ostavite one koje hoce da to budu.A ova slika ( makar je iskorishcena u politichke svrhe) meni je lichno OK. E sad slogani koje neki uzvikuju uz nju vec nisu OK...

Ti zeno draga ne razumes o cemu ja govorim...

Ne brate ne znam shta hocesh da kazesh...Uhvatila si se za Avganistan...pa Avganistan...
Ko bi mogao pozeleti da bude zena u Avganistanu ( mada mozda ima i takvih :x).
Ne mogu da uhvatim kakve veze ima Avganistan sa gornjim tekstom?

Quote from: Jelence on February 23, 2010, 11:52:00 AM

Svako vece dolazi muz s posla kuci i trlja ti stopala.

Дође кући и трља ти крижи....

Quote from: vbo man on February 23, 2010, 06:53:59 AM
Ma nije bitno, ne treba insistirati na privatnim detaljima onih koji ne zele da ih iznesu. xyxy

slazem se, vbo, i povlacim pitanje.

xjap

E па сад не може, има да ме питаш и још ћеш да певаш!

А тема је општа: Why Househusbands Are the Future (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/why-househusbands-are-the-future/?ex=1282107600&en=4af49260df6b7382&ei=5087&WT.mc_id=OP-D-I-NYT-MOD-MOD-M137-ROS-0210-HDR&WT.mc_ev=click)

hmmmm


a da nis ti jedan od onih stay at home dads pa se zato uprepodobio???   :twisted:


Da se osvrnem na mirisljavi topik. Ako me secanje ne vara, bella, pikoleta i ja smo se jednom izjasnile da nam se od muskih mirisa najvise svidja miris muske koze....(z kao zuto).... priznajem sve, ali ODBIJAM da njusim

taped pads to their underarms and asked them to watch a funny or scary movie. Then they got another group of subjects to sniff the pads and predict whether the pads were from the scary movie group or the funny movie group. iz onog linka sto si okacio...

Quote from: slawen on February 24, 2010, 12:27:23 PM
E па сад не може, има да ме питаш и још ћеш да певаш!

А тема је општа: Why Househusbands Are the Future (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/why-househusbands-are-the-future/?ex=1282107600&en=4af49260df6b7382&ei=5087&WT.mc_id=OP-D-I-NYT-MOD-MOD-M137-ROS-0210-HDR&WT.mc_ev=click)

I sta sad, ignorises me?

Dobar dokumentarac bash o ovim stvarima...
http://player.sbs.com.au/programs#/programs_08/fullepisodes/latestepisodes/playlist/Baby-Boom-To-Bust-Ep1-Missing-Children/ (http://player.sbs.com.au/programs#/programs_08/fullepisodes/latestepisodes/playlist/Baby-Boom-To-Bust-Ep1-Missing-Children/)

A evo kako je biti star i shta nas cheka...Nadam se da cu da uginem pre nego dozivim ovo,,,
http://player.sbs.com.au/programs#/programs_08/fullepisodes/latestepisodes/playlist/Baby-Boom-To-Bust-Ep2-Grey-Tsunami-/ (http://player.sbs.com.au/programs#/programs_08/fullepisodes/latestepisodes/playlist/Baby-Boom-To-Bust-Ep2-Grey-Tsunami-/)